Viewing a thread - 4 WD Articulating Value

You are logged in as a guest. ( logon

With competitive price and timely delivery, HUILI Machinery sincerely hope to be your supplier and partner.

ben5398

Posted 1/28/2014 20:55 (#3644025)
Subject: 4 WD Articulating Value

Central Illinois

Central Illinois

I have noticed that the value of an articulating tractor seems to drop much faster than MFWD for similar years and hours. We have never had a 4WD tractor on our farm and my father has never had any interest in them because of their size. In a couple years I will be updating our planter, planter tractor and adding guidance. With the planter thread below it got me thinking about the 4wd tractor as a cheaper option than a MFWD. Why do these large tractors not seem to hold their value? Do they wear down faster? Are they more abused? AVP_Matt

Posted 1/28/2014 21:16 (#3644129 - in reply to #3644025)
Subject: Re: 4 WD Articulating Value

Hennepin, IL

The main reason is that there are plenty of people out there with the same mindset as your father, they think they are too big or clumsy or not as versatile, so they talk themselves into a MFWD. I agree, they aren't as versatile, and therefore in most cases would strictly be a tillage tractor. In your case would probably be a planter/grain cart tractor only. What I mean by that is it won't be a backup for the little jobs like mowing road ditches etc. As far as the big and clumsy, IMO as long as there is some consideration for the job it is going to do, they are no more clumsy than a lot of MFWDs. The other issue is that a lot of the older 4WDs that are in the horsepower range for the planters today are bareback, and the ones of the same age that come with a PTO or 3pt are too small by today's standards. Big Ben

Posted 1/28/2014 21:18 (#3644138 - in reply to #3644025)
Subject: RE: 4 WD Articulating Value

Columbia Basin, Ephrata, WA

I'm not so sure they drop in value faster, they just cost less in the first place. I bought a 350 Steiger a year ago for about the same price as a green 7r.
DIESELDAN74

Posted 1/28/2014 21:26 (#3644168 - in reply to #3644138)
Subject: Re: 4 WD Articulating Value

I agree with the above, a 8360R is a lot higher than a 9360R, The lack of hydraulic capacity in older 4wds can be an issue to. Barebacks will be cheaper there basically a one purpose tractor. If want a 4wd to hold resale buy one with PS trans PTO 3 point and auto steer. You will have wider range of buyers when there fully equipped when you want to sell it. Just my two cents.

Edited by DIESELDAN74 1/28/2014 21:27

IH_always

Posted 1/28/2014 21:33 (#3644189 - in reply to #3644138)
Subject: RE: 4 WD Articulating Value

I have 2 and always thought they costs more to get worked on at the dealership. As said before they seem too big for smaller jobs and some might have too wide of tires/duals for the tool behind them if using them as a backup. More steps to climb to cab, taller,wider for shed space,roading. Some think too heavy causing compaction. Most have been pulling a full load their whole life as a tillage tractor. eddiedry

Posted 1/28/2014 21:39 (#3644214 - in reply to #3644189)
Subject: Re: 4 WD Articulating Value

Wheatley, Arkansas

Wheatley, Arkansas

We spend more money keeping our MFWD's running than our 4X4's. crowbar

Posted 1/28/2014 21:47 (#3644236 - in reply to #3644025)
Subject: RE: 4 WD Articulating Value

Hazelton, Kansas

5398,

I don't think I accept your premise (that 4-wds depreciate faster than MFWDs) unless you limit the conversation to Deere.

Big Ben has it right; 4-wds ARE quite a bit cheaper than MFWDs when new.

Regards.

MDS

Edited by crowbar 1/28/2014 21:48

1156versatile

Posted 1/28/2014 21:48 (#3644246 - in reply to #3644025)
Subject: Re: 4 WD Articulating Value

Strathcona, mn

I would much rather have a 4wd with 10000 hours than a mfwd with half of that. I am biased to versatile and steiger based 4wd's and am not a fan of green ones up until the 9000 series. The 4wd are much easier to work on as they are component based tractors. Engines can come out easier, transmissions come out easier, and axles are interchangeable. Try that with a mfwd without splitting the tractor into 5 or 6 parts. They are cheaper to run in the long run. We use my 2-steiger puma 1000's for everything we use a mfwd for, including, mowing, grading, cart, roller, planter, manure spreader, sprayer, sidedress nh3, rotary ditcher, grain vac, plowing snow, etc.... IMO they are every bit as nimble as a mfwd and are much better balanced weight wise. We pull the outer duals off when sideressing and run them on 60" centers. IMO for tillage in have not seen a situation in my conditions yet that would ever warrant a mfwd over a 4wd in tillage, absolutely no comparison in capabilities. eddiedry

Posted 1/28/2014 21:59 (#3644281 - in reply to #3644236)
Subject: Re: 4 WD Articulating Value

Wheatley, Arkansas

Wheatley, Arkansas

Apparently you haven't looked at Deere 4x4 used sales lately. They are selling for more than any other 4x4 out there.
crowbar

Posted 1/28/2014 22:47 (#3644439 - in reply to #3644281)
Subject: Re: 4 WD Articulating Value

Hazelton, Kansas

Eddie,

You're right. I dont even watch the prices of used Deere 4-wds, even though I feel they have very good dealers in this area.

But remember, Deere's 4-wds have historically been priced well over the competition when new. So, the question was, do Deere's 4-wds return more or less of their original cost than Deere's MFWDs?

Dunno...

Regards.

MDS durallymax

Posted 1/28/2014 23:03 (#3644469 - in reply to #3644025)
Subject: Re: 4 WD Articulating Value

Wi

I dont think they loose value fast, just a lot cheaper to begin with because they are simpler. Their job is to pull or push, not be handy or versatile with many tasks. No suspension, CVT's, etc etc. wbstofer

Posted 1/29/2014 06:37 (#3644708 - in reply to #3644025)
Subject: Re: 4 WD Articulating Value

North Central IN

Deere 4455 MFWD vs C-IH 9350 3pt/PTO row crop special here. No way I'm going back to the Deere for pulling the grain cart. As soon as I can find narrow spaced wheels I'm going to plant and side dress with the Steiger... milofarmer1

Posted 1/29/2014 07:09 (#3644771 - in reply to #3644025)
Subject: Re: 4 WD Articulating Value

Texas/New Mexico Stateline

Texas/New Mexico Stateline

Machinery Pete has pointed out that late model used 4wds have really dropped in value fast in comparison to older models which are holding their value very good. Or even slightly appreciating when they are clean and well cared for.

Several reasons being dealers have a lot of 1-4 year old models on the lot and need to move them, most people that need a 4wd already have a decent one, and don't really want to move up in years, especially into one that is about out of warranty. There is NO WAY I would trade my early 1990s low hour Case IH 9250 for a comparable late model with all the EPA junk on it, and about to come out of warranty. I can do the exact same work, use the same amount of fuel, and have almost exactly the same comforts. Why trade?

As to the original question, I think it depends on what years and quality you are looking at. Good clean older ones reach a certain point and basically hold their value. 1-4 year olds with new pollution controls drop in value like a rock. Old Pokey

Posted 1/29/2014 07:31 (#3644831 - in reply to #3644025)
Subject: RE: 4 WD Articulating Value

 Look how many more farms the mfwd style will fit. There is a little bit of hp overlap at the 300hp mark, but for the most part, the mfwd market is below 300 and the articulated is above 300hp. Even a multiple 500 hp tractor farm usually has an mfwd sitting in the shed for those loader jobs or bush hog or grain vac jobs etc.

 The technology advancements in tractor and tire design also play a role. In the articulated world, everything is going tracks.

Tomcat

Posted 1/29/2014 07:32 (#3644833 - in reply to #3644025)
Subject: RE: 4 WD Articulating Value

Ludington/Manistee MI area

Ludington/Manistee MI area

How many folks do you see going from MFWD to 4 WD? How many go back ? Nearly none. The issue with 4WD is Steiger and Versie didn't think far enough ahead to make a good PTO standard along time ago. Bought my first wiggler 2 years ago wish I would have done it sooner. scott nelsen

Posted 1/29/2014 07:57 (#3644901 - in reply to #3644025)
Subject: Re: 4 WD Articulating Value

Leeds, North Dakota

I would sit back and wait, used tractor market is gonna get softer, depends on what your for seeing needs are, do you need powershift? pto? closed system hydraulics would be at the top of the list, would also look at options for hydraulics, get the big pumps, better to have to much hydraulics than not enough, Scott. ben5398

Posted 1/29/2014 10:01 (#3645238 - in reply to #3644025)
Subject: Re: 4 WD Articulating Value

If you are looking for more details, kindly visit small articulated tractor.

Central Illinois

Central Illinois

We are a green farm, a case dealership just moved to the area but have been loyal to green and treated well over the years so I dont see us switching. I will not be making the move to a new planter setup for a few years, for the fact I will not be given the reigns for another 2 seasons, and the first year or two I want to just pay debts to my fathers equipment. Not needing the power was our main reason for not having made the move, and until two years ago when we built a new shed we did not have enough buildings tall enough to store a 4wd, the only one we had that was, could only fit our combine leaving no space but for some small equipment. We farm just over 700 acres with only an 80 rented the rest is in the immediate family so we will not be shrinking anytime soon, but I will say I only looked green when I noticed the trend. I did not know that new 4wd were actually cheaper than mfwd, I was just curious in general terms when I asked not brand specific. I tend to think that those who said space was the biggest issue and that most farmers beleive they dont need the power as has been our reason is probably the biggest reason.

Edited by ben5398 1/29/2014 10:44

durallymax

Posted 1/29/2014 10:38 (#3645341 - in reply to #3644833)
Subject: RE: 4 WD Articulating Value

Wi

Tomcat - 1/29/2014 06:32 How many folks do you see going from MFWD to 4 WD? How many go back ? Nearly none. The issue with 4WD is Steiger and Versie didn't think far enough ahead to make a good PTO standard along time ago. Bought my first wiggler 2 years ago wish I would have done it sooner.

We haven't even got our first one yet, but plan on trading our MF 8680 on one. All it does is push silage and do heavy tillage. An articulated would walk all over that thing, just not enough weight. We have it weighted up a lot with wheel weights, 4k on the rear 3pt and the blade but still just spins the tires a lot when pushing.  Articulateds are nicer when pushing too because you can actually steer, can't really steer the best with an MFWD when pushing hard. Silage you can but haylage and such is more difficult.  Plus with an articulated you can come into the bunker off angle versus 100% straight and push up which is nice in tighter areas.  And they of course are better at heavy draft work.  ben5398

Posted 1/29/2014 10:53 (#3645378 - in reply to #3644025)
Subject: Re: 4 WD Articulating Value

Central Illinois

Central Illinois

I am breaking my own thread as I was not wanting to get brand specific and want to know generalities about 4wd from all brands and resale, but I noticed with the deere that 9xxx were not all powershift, but instead gearing looks like our 4440. I find this odd since all 8xxx are powershift, but 9xxx do have the little knob that is used for shifting our 8400. I thought I read somewhere they are partial powershift, how does it work? I assume they did that to keep cost down, I would only want powershift now that I have it in our 8400. Also was there no 9x10 series? durallymax

Posted 1/29/2014 12:08 (#3645552 - in reply to #3645378)
Subject: Re: 4 WD Articulating Value

Wi

ben5398 - 1/29/2014 09:53 I am breaking my own thread as I was not wanting to get brand specific and want to know generalities about 4wd from all brands and resale, but I noticed with the deere that 9xxx were not all powershift, but instead gearing looks like our 4440. I find this odd since all 8xxx are powershift, but 9xxx do have the little knob that is used for shifting our 8400. I thought I read somewhere they are partial powershift, how does it work? I assume they did that to keep cost down, I would only want powershift now that I have it in our 8400. Also was there no 9x10 series?

I dont know Deeres well but assume if its a partial powershift they just make the range change automatically. A lot of modern tractors do this.  They offered full powershifts as well as a few other styles of transmission throughout the years.  

There was no 9x10 series to my knowledge.  crowbar

Posted 1/29/2014 12:25 (#3645575 - in reply to #3645378)
Subject: Re: 4 WD Articulating Value

Hazelton, Kansas

5398,

I'll take a crack at some of these, although what follows is from memory.

The Deere 9x00 tractors at one time had 3 trannies. The 12 speed had no power shift but at least partial (and maybe full) synchronization. The 24 speed added a Hi-Lo power shift to the 12 speed, and shifts with the little knob. The power shift (initially purchased, IIRC) was also optional.

The simpler trannies are offered on the 4-wd tractors because many of them were sold in the plains, and buyers there place less value on PS trannies. The competition ran a variety of tranny styles. Also, some of the 4-wds were blessed with abundant torque rise, which reduced the need for PS.

The 8x00 was designed from scratch with a high crankshaft, structural pan, and a PS that had the output shaft quite a bit lower than the crank. But the output shaft was nowhere near as low as would be needed for a 4-wd. It's a matter of unit volumes, and Deere eventually saw fit to develop their own PS for the 4-wds, but did so only after the scraper market really took off.

As I said earlier, I have run 4-wds on planters starting with a 750 Versatile with a supplemental hydraulic kit. I see no reason for a PS, and less than no reason to be interested in an MFWD. I have a good friend who won't consider anything without a PS. To each his own.

FWIW

MDS

Edited by crowbar 1/29/2014 13:05

Big Ben

Posted 1/29/2014 13:20 (#3645665 - in reply to #3645552)
Subject: Re: 4 WD Articulating Value

Columbia Basin, Ephrata, WA

Yes, there is no 9x10 series.

The 9x00 tractors with the 24 speed didn't make any gear changes automatically, as far as I know. You have to shift gears with the sticks, and then the knob on the armrest just shifts the high-low like moving the lever sideways did in a 8x70 tractor.
stanredrider

Posted 1/29/2014 13:22 (#3645669 - in reply to #3645575)
Subject: Re: 4 WD Articulating Value

Westside, IA

This is why powershift is necessary for me...

(IMG_0008.JPG)

Attachments
----------------
IMG_0008.JPG (34KB - 183 downloads)
loran

Posted 1/29/2014 13:31 (#3645683 - in reply to #3645238)
Subject: How does?

West Union, IOWA FLOLO Farm 52175

How does one become a Greene Farm? Do they pay you? *******

You want cheap horse......and GREENE.... Look toward 8000/9000t

Simple and good bang for the Buck
ben5398

Posted 1/29/2014 14:28 (#3645770 - in reply to #3645575)
Subject: Re: 4 WD Articulating Value

Central Illinois

Central Illinois

crowbar - 1/29/2014 11:25

5398,

I'll take a crack at some of these, although what follows is from memory.

The Deere 9x00 tractors at one time had 3 trannies. The 12 speed had no power shift but at least partial (and maybe full) synchronization. The 24 speed added a Hi-Lo power shift to the 12 speed, and shifts with the little knob. The power shift (initially purchased, IIRC) was also optional.

The simpler trannies are offered on the 4-wd tractors because many of them were sold in the plains, and buyers there place less value on PS trannies. The competition ran a variety of tranny styles. Also, some of the 4-wds were blessed with abundant torque rise, which reduced the need for PS.

The 8x00 was designed from scratch with a high crankshaft, structural pan, and a PS that had the output shaft quite a bit lower than the crank. But the output shaft was nowhere near as low as would be needed for a 4-wd. It's a matter of unit volumes, and Deere eventually saw fit to develop their own PS, but did so only after the scraper market really took off.

As I said earlier, I have run 4-wds on planters starting with a 750 Versatile with a supplemental hydraulic kit. I see no reason for a PS, and less than no reason to be interested in an MFWD. I have a good friend who won't consider anything without a PS. To each his own.

FWIW

MDS

Thanks good info. I love the PS, I would not pay 10 or 20 g's extra but I would pay a couple. ben5398

Posted 1/29/2014 14:37 (#3645788 - in reply to #3645669)
Subject: Re: 4 WD Articulating Value

Central Illinois

Central Illinois

stanredrider - 1/29/2014 12:22

This is why powershift is necessary for me...

Looks similar to our farm, we just got the 8400 two years ago and we will never go backwards from the PS. We have been using a 4650 for many years and still do but the 8400 with the PS is such a step up. I would always prefer lower hours, but that is relative. To us lower is 3-5,000 at purchase, others that is time to get a new one. In general the 8x00 series seems to be running up huge hours (10,000+) before wearing down, do the 9xx0 series and other 4wds seem to be able to run comparable. I know our mechanic has warned us against track vehicles around 4-6000 due to needing to replace major components.

Edited by ben5398 1/29/2014 14:39

ben5398

Posted 1/29/2014 14:40 (#3645797 - in reply to #3645665)
Subject: Re: 4 WD Articulating Value

Central Illinois

Central Illinois

Big Ben - 1/29/2014 12:20

Yes, there is no 9x10 series.

The 9x00 tractors with the 24 speed didn't make any gear changes automatically, as far as I know. You have to shift gears with the sticks, and then the knob on the armrest just shifts the high-low like moving the lever sideways did in a 8x70 tractor.

That is really odd, does anyone know why they did not have the 10 series? ben5398

Posted 1/29/2014 15:01 (#3645848 - in reply to #3645683)
Subject: RE: How does?

Central Illinois

Central Illinois

loran - 1/29/2014 12:31

How does one become a Greene Farm? Do they pay you? *******

You want cheap horse......and GREENE.... Look toward 8000/9000t

Simple and good bang for the Buck

Ha---Green=Deere I see what you did there "Greene" anyway, I know deere and cheap dont go hand in hand.

I am not looking for cheap horse but just curious about the 4wd subject, and thought it was odd that such a huge tractor would not seem to hold value as well as mfwd, but now that I know they cost less to begin with some things are making sense.

We really have had great service over the years and honestly other than replacing a clutch have not had to have much worked on, and we rarely get rid of a tractor. We have only sold one in the last 10 years (4020) and 3 in the last 20 (4010, 4630, 4020 listed before) which means basically once we buy them we will run them for a long time. I have looked at the t series as they do seem to be cheaper but since we purchase at the 3-5000 hour range my understanding is I would need to make sure that the undercarriage was replaced.


Whenever I do pull the trigger it will replace a 4430 that has been a great planter tractor for us for the last 30 years. But with my needs vs my fathers I will need more tractor and more planter as I will not be able to be full time, thus I need to get in an out of the field faster, planting a lot at night and on weekends. stanredrider

Posted 1/29/2014 16:49 (#3646066 - in reply to #3645788)
Subject: Re: 4 WD Articulating Value

Westside, IA

Im not sure what the right answer is, seems like the newer the tractor the more problems. Have an 8400 with 9000+ hours on (not an easy life) and it has never left me stranded, have a 9330 with 2400 hrs and has major electrical issues. Last fall would just die in the field and not restart, 3 fuel pumps later still doing that and throwing a 100 more codes. Not sure what to do this spring if I cant rely on it. Makes a Big Bud look more appealing everyday.

I've been thinking it over:

A loader that easily fits into a standard 1.20 meter horse barn door, will just about manage to handle a bale.
A loader of 3 foot wide to enter many of our older stables, will not have enough capacity to clean a free stable with 3 groups of 4 to 6 horses within reasonable time, and will not handle a bale.

So, the bigger one can handle bales but its width is a limiting factor so we still have to do half the stables by hand. The smaller ones can do those individual stables, but not handle bales nor handle tramped muck in a free stable.

Either size, i think the machine will have not enough deployment to make it a wise buy.

I can narrow down the trackwidth of my 3011 to 1.35 meter so it will measure 1.65 meter over the tires. thats small enough to clean out the free stables, which is already half of our horses. The 3011 has plenty of other uses on the farm so we need to keep it anyways.

To load muck into spreaders, or pick up bales from the field, i still need to keep my frontloader on the 5245 so a 10 to 15.000 euro miniloader will be a very expensive thing, because it cant do all material handling jobs: the small machine cant handle the bigger jobs and the bigger machine cant get into the old narrow stable doors. Even though all machines will get a little less used, we would still need to keep both tractors, the frontloader and the kid who cleans stables on saturday.

I think we're better off cleaning the stables with narrow doors by hand, and the yet-to-build freestalls with the 3011

Contact us to discuss your requirements of Heavy-duty mountain tractors. Our experienced sales team can help you identify the options that best suit your needs.